83: Lauren Andraski on the Best Ways to Bring Consultants into Your Organization
Lauren Andraski is a collaborative community builder who champions equitable communities in every area of her life - from launching a community of nonprofit consultants to starting a string quartet in her living room. As the founder of Consultants for Good, she has created a thriving network of over 1,100 nonprofit consultants across 6 continents.
Quotes:
“We’ve found that capacity building usually takes at least three years to actually give organizations time to implement and start seeing evidence of that impact. Setting the clear expectation that just because we don't see it right away doesn't mean that nothing's happening, and we should stay the course on the things we’re trying to implement.”
“Consultants aren't often cheap, but they're an incredible investment if you're clear on where you actually want to start.”
“When you're hiring a consultant, one of the benefits is that the consultant is not already on your team. They're not part of the power dynamics. They are not part of the culture—in a really positive way. I think sometimes it feels like they'll never understand us. But in fact, that can be really helpful.”
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“When you’re hiring a consultant, one of the benefits is that the consultant is not already on your team. They’re not part of the power dynamics. They are not part of the culture—in a really positive way. I think sometimes it feels like they’ll never understand us. But in fact, that can be really helpful.”
Transcript:
Lauren Reky is a collaborative community builder who champions equitable communities in every area of her life. From launching a community of nonprofit consultants to starting a string quartet in her living room. As the founder of Consultants For Good, she has created a thriving network of over 1,100 nonprofit consultants across six continents.
I'm a happy member of Consultants for Good, and I'm so excited, Lauren, to have this conversation with you about. Consultants and how they can really support the organizations that they serve. So happy to have you on. I'm gonna just jump into the first question, C 4G, which is the shortcut for Consultants for Good is a really powerful network, like I mentioned, of over 1,100 consultants across six continents, which is wild.
What patterns have you noticed in how the most successful consultants create sustainable impact within the organizations that they serve? That's great. Thanks so much, and I'm so excited to be here. I think the most important thing when starting an engagement between a consultant and a nonprofit, and this can be led by either the consultant or the nonprofit, is beginning with a really clear shared definition of exce of success.
So I think it's especially effective to have clarity on whether the. Goals are what the organization wants to achieve. So we want this to be the outcome or we want these actions to take place, so we want this particular program to exist or we want these outcomes. And knowing which of those is more important and how much adaptability the organization has to.
Adjust what those actions are, if they're goal oriented specifically, it's really important to work collaboratively between the consultant and the nonprofit. So instead of just whatever you think consultant or the other way as well, you know, whatever this nonprofit thinks, nonprofits have such a benefit of the expertise of a consultant that this is the thing they're amazing at.
So if they're bringing them in. As much as you can, you know, really rely on that expertise of the consultant, but also make sure you're a part of that. Um, we found in some of our research too, and this probably sounds obvious anyways, but people tend to support what they're helping to create. So you want the organization to be really bought in, not just hand something over the consultant that gets handed back.
I would also say really embedding consultant recommendations into everyday operations. So. You know, organizations can do one-off trainings, but those tend to be great. We've checked the box, we had the training, and then we go back to our lives. But how do you actually. Integrate these skills, these systems, into your every day, and how do you make sure your organization has the capacity to continue to implement and use these new systems as you move beyond the actual consultant engagement?
The worst kind of consultant engagement that we see is great. You have a strategic plan, it's going to sit in a folder or a binder, and nobody's ever going to touch it, but you did the thing, you did the strategic planning, and I think it's such a disservice to the nonprofits too. Spend this time, this money, all of this energy creating something that doesn't get used.
And I think it is also a disservice to the consultants who then it feels like they didn't have an impact. The organization feels like they didn't have an impact, when really there could have just been more attention put on what does this actually look like to use all of this moving forward. I love that and I, it's so, I was nodding my head as you were saying all of that because it also makes me think of how often I, when I'm talking to a nonprofit about consulting with them, they bring up bad past experiences.
And a lot of that is because they feel like the consultant came in. They may have been amazing at what they do, but they'll say we haven't done anything with it. And so I'm curious if you would also talk a little bit about. Budget constraints and how to navigate from, from what you've learned either in your research or your own work or consultants that are inside of the network.
How do we navigate board and leadership concerns about bringing in consultants because of those past experiences where the capacity didn't allow them to continue the work or because the expertise kind of left with the consultant? Great question. The first thing that we found in some of our research from the Effective Communities project.
They found that capacity building usually takes at least three years to actually give organizations time to implement and start seeing evidence of that impact. So I don't think, I know that could sound discouraging, that it can take that long, but I think setting that clear expectation that just because we don't see it right away doesn't mean that.
Nothing's happening and we should stay the course on some of these things that we're trying to implement, trying to change within our organization to see that shift of impact. And obviously it depends on the kind of programs you're running, what your mission is. Um, but that can take, can take a little bit longer.
I. Also think that hiring a consultant in some ways because they tend to seem like they cost a lot more than an employee, which I can share a little bit about about that as well. But it can give an organization a really good chance to take a hard look at what they want to focus on at a greater level and say what's the most important, what are the things.
Of that list of most important things that we keep putting on the back burner. We don't have the time, we don't have the expertise, we don't generally have the capacity to do this. Um, and how can we pick that, that thing that feels, this is the most important area to focus, to bring in a consultant on that, because that's one way to get really the most bang for your buck or the pieces, this kind of the smaller pieces that are being stalled within a larger, larger program.
So maybe you've created this amazing program, your team is great at that and nobody's signing up. So how do you then. Incorporate that actual, um, incorporate the marketing or something like that to take the work that your team is amazing at and bring it to that next level. Hmm. Um, the thing I'll say too about this, consultants feel expensive, but you aren't paying a salary for them to.
Attend team meetings, uh, relationships in the same way with your team. You're not paying for their laptop, you're not paying for their office space most of the time. So, not to say that there can't be some crossover there, but I think, you know, and especially looking at a lot of these, um, the uncertainty around funding at the moment, um, especially for organizations receiving federal grants, I think consultants can be a really great.
To offset some of those costs because you are hiring them for something they're already experts in. You don't have to take time to train them out of the rest of your staff's time. And so while the, you know, the sticker price might feel higher. You maybe hiring them for a $25,000 project to get something that your team doesn't have capacity to do and then it's done and you don't have all of the other kind of extras that come with an employee.
Right. So I'm so glad you brought that up about the three years, because I feel like that would help to. Maybe persuade people that it is really about the long game and it also makes me think about the other benefit of being in the consultants for good network. And I'd like for you to talk a little bit about how a nonprofit can can engage with with C 4G.
My question is. Maybe around kind of scaffolding or stair steps. So for example, if I come in and I provide interim leadership services to a nonprofit, part of the way that they might be able to get that three years of, of impact, maybe a little sooner, or, uh, maybe a more intentional way is to make sure that you're, they're thinking about who are the other capacity building support networks that we need, or other consultants that we might need to help.
Build on the work that that consultant just did. So if you have a strategic plan partner, a consultant that comes in, maybe the next. Step would be to bring someone in who really knows systems like Monday, Asana, Basecamp, et cetera, so you can implement your strategic plan and get it operationalized instead of it, like you said, just living in a binder.
Do you have examples of other kind of stair step or scaffolding ideas that a nonprofit executive that's listening could think about to really amplify and, and more fully build out the use case of having consultants in their space? Yeah, and I think something that's important to note too is there are so many different ways that you can engage a consultant.
So let's say you're an executive of a nonprofit right now and you're not quite sure if you have the budget to even hire somebody fully to do a strategic plan. There's a couple of ways that you can still get resources from consultants where their whole thing is strategic planning. So we actually post a lot of, as part of our consultant membership benefit consultants can share.
Articles, videos on demand resources, which are often, you know, something like a free or paid download so you can have access to their resources. So you can start with those to also get a sense of which consultants' work feels the most exciting. Which pieces of their work could you implement on your own?
You know, maybe you spend a hundred dollars on a download, you can get things kicked off in your team without using the consultant's time to actually implement some of those things that your team is totally capable of doing. Another way that you can do it is if you connect with a consultant you're interested in working on or working with.
You can always start with coaching. Most consultants, even if it's not one of their major offerings, we'll come in and coach you, which could be something that happens at the beginning of engagement to see if this is a, this is a consultant that's a good fit for your organization and for your needs. You can also ask them to see if there's a way to do some coaching later on.
So this could be someone who's then serving as an accountability partner, um, who understands the work that you're implementing, but they've scaled back a lot so that way your team can test their own capacity. Can see. What it's like and then still have that support when you get stuck, when you're struggling to get things done, when you thought you understood based on the initial work, but now that you're implementing it, things feel different and need a little bit of extra support.
So I think that can be, those are a couple different ways that engagements can look depending on the consultant you're working with. Most consultants I've talked to are open to. Doing coaching engagements and because those take a lot less time and preparation on the consultant side, typically those can be a lot more affordable and lower lift.
Another thing I'd offer, and it's a little bit on the consultant side, but I think a nonprofit executive can ask consultants this too. Something I've been talking about with consultants a lot is, whose work comes before yours and who, whose work comes after yours. So, if consultants can start building out some of those partnerships now, you know, you reach out to, for example, someone who's great at websites, um, because you need your website updated, but the person that comes before that.
Might be a copy editor or after that is maybe the copy editor. So whatever that order looks like, nonprofits can also advocate for themselves and saying, okay, what does the full scope of what we need done look like and who might we want to plug into? Some of that could be things like online resources, resources from other nonprofits.
It doesn't always have to come from a consultant, but getting a bigger picture will also help with the sustainability of that project, and I think a pretty clear assessment of. You and your team's capacity. You know who's already good at these things? Who wants to grow skills in these areas, who has some time?
How do we use our team in conjunction with a consultant to have an overall more sustainable and impactful experience working with consultant? I love that. And which that brings me, Lauren, to a follow-up question. Do you have any recommendations for the person listening who maybe is. Has already brought in a consultant and they're not ready to start yet, or they're just thinking about it, how can they best prepare their nonprofit staff or their team to work with a consultant?
And that might be a little hard to answer because every consultant's different and the the work that they're doing, their scope might be different. But do you have any tips or tricks for how they can best set themselves up for success as they're bringing in a consultant? Yeah, I would say as far as your, you know, as organizations are thinking about.
What it looks like to bring in a consultant and maybe comparing to, is this something we do in-house or is this something that we hire a staff person for? I think back to being really clear on what are we spending our time on as an organization and what are our biggest goals and. You know, where, where are we struggling to meet those goals?
Where do we need that extra capacity? Whether that's training from a consultant so your team can do it, whether it's just someone to do the work that your team doesn't have a chance to get to and doesn't necessarily need to be an expert in. Maybe it's a new technology implementation, whatever that looks like, which will be the most impactful to actually meet your goals.
I also think just being really clear on. Where are you in your needs and not creating a scope for a consultant too early? One example I have of that is I, the most common request that I'll get from organizations is we need help with fundraising. And then I'll ask, you know, what does your budget look like?
What sort of fundraising? Do you have a specific program you're looking to fund? They're like, I don't know, but we need more money for our organization. That's fine. That's an okay place to be, but often I'll see organizations then jump over kind of this interim messy planning step and write an RFPA request for proposals to send out to consultants well before they're actually ready to hire someone since they're not really sure, well, is it fundraising?
Do we need, do we actually need a theory of change? Do we need a strategic plan? You know what, where are we actually in that stage? And so, and also what do we have the capacity to implement? Let's say that your organization just gets very lucky and has a windfall of a million dollar donation. What are you doing with that?
Do you have a sense of what that looks like and are you prepared to actually implement that? So one thing that we'll offer, so we do consultants for good offers, um, scoping support. So if you're in the, I don't know, maybe, but we kind of know what our goals look like, we'll walk you through that. We'll bring in some consultants from the community that have expertise in the areas that you're looking for support to help you understand what a, a project could look like and include enough adaptability so that way when you bring in this consultant who's already an expert in this area, they can help you figure out what that looks like alongside your team.
Um, so I think that that's, that's a huge part, is not jumping into scoping and searching too early. If you've got a sense of, do I need fundraising? Do I need theory of change, strategic plan, I don't know. You can also reach out to consultants like on our directory for example. You can search for each of these areas.
Most consultants will offer a 30 minute kind of a get to know you consultation call to see if you're a good fit. So you can ask questions like that, bring that back to your team and get a better sense of where you might wanna start because it is important to. You know, consultants aren't often cheap, but they're an incredible investment if you're clear on where you actually wanna start.
So sometimes having those conversations with consultants in different areas could give you a sense as an organization where you might want to actually begin. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Big plus one to all of that. I think the other thing that I'd like to ask you then, about what, what I have noticed from interacting with some of the other consultants that are in C 4G is this really beautiful, truly collaborative.
Environment and the way that everyone shows up really sets themselves, I think above and beyond typical consultants because if someone called me, for example, because they found me through the C 4G directory, if I wasn't the right fit, I would know to go back to the directory and back to the network to find other people to recommend them for.
I'm curious. If that was an intentional design on your part, this collaborative mindset rather than competition. And you know, just maybe if you could talk a little bit about how you've built the community with C 4G to really both support the consultants that are in the network, but also really ultimately to benefit the nonprofits that hire the C 4G consultants.
Absolutely. So I'll start with a story about how my consulting business totally failed. When I started consulting, I definitely approached it with more of a scarcity mindset. So basically any potential client that showed up, including ones that wanted pro bono work because I was just getting started. I would do anything that I was even moderately comfortable doing, but what that meant was that I was doing work that I actually didn't love and ultimately wasn't the thing that I was best at.
And so nonprofits weren't even getting the best support from me as a consultant when I was starting one thing, another thing that I noticed more on the consultant side was I was asking other consultants, Hey, do you have an RFP template, A proposal template that you'd like to use that works well with you?
And some of them wouldn't share it. They said, absolutely not. You know, that's how I get business. It kind of clicked for me. Then, one, I had created a worse job for myself than when I wasn't self-employed. So what was I doing? And that some consultants believed that, you know, just the format of their proposal was the thing that was getting them work instead of the things that really made them unique and successful and an incredible expert at the work that they did.
Not to say that this can always work because I know it's a huge privilege to be able to do this. Sometimes you need to pay the bills. But as a consultant, if you can say no and even refer someone else to all or part of a project, that's not the thing that you're best at, it opens up your time and capacity to do what you're best at.
So one contract, for example, was event fundraising. I'd done a lot of event planning, hadn't done much fundraising, but how hard could it be? And I wish I had just said, you know, fundraising for events is not something I have a lot of experience in. Let me reach out to some other consultants who love doing this work, who excel at this.
They would've had a lot more success with their event because they would've had somebody who was actually good at fundraising for events. They also would've found a consultant who knew better than to start fundraising for an event that was two months away, um, and could have pushed back on that, which I didn't, didn't know better at the time.
It would've given me then the capacity instead of spending all of this time on something I didn't enjoy doing that I wasn't very good at to actually say, great. I have space to take on projects around community building, which I love doing, and I'm so much better at. Instead of doing a subpar event, fundraising job.
And that organization could have had somebody who's incredible at that. So a lot of that has been intentional. I think we've also, I've seen people in the community, just like you mentioned, one of my favorites was somebody, there was a consultant who shared, I'm applying for this opportunity, but I wanted to share it along.
So this person was creating competition with the idea that if more of us apply, the nonprofit will get to hire the person that's really the best fit for this work. And I just thought that was. Incredible Part of that too is that for nonprofits, this gives access to a larger pool of consultants. I think sometimes nonprofits feel like they need to ref rely on personal ref referrals.
Someone on their board has a cousin who knows about event fundraising, so maybe they could do it for a good deal. And I think that can create, not only is it an equity and access issue, it also means that your organization is. Maybe having a, maybe that's makes the board member happy. They got to make this referral, but typically you're not necessarily actually getting the exact skillset that you're looking for, um, which includes hiring a consultant that reflects the community that you serve.
We've found through some of our research through Pepperdine University, that that increases the effectiveness of the, the consulting project, and so. What we've tried to do with Consultant Match Lab, which is part of Consultants for Good, is there's 1200 consultants now in our community. So you can be really specific as an organization for what you're looking for.
If you want somebody who has specific lived experience and event fundraising, and they tend to work with organizations with a, a budget of under a million dollars, which I think about a quarter of our consultants do, you can get really specific and spend so much less time. Onboarding and going through that process with that abundance mindset.
So I think both on the consultant side for take the work that you're excited about and you're amazing at, share the rest with everybody else 'cause that will create more space for things to come around to you. And I think on the nonprofit side as well, there are so many consultants out there. You don't just have to agree to the one that was introduced to you first or that you found first.
There are so many people that are ready to help you and are excited about the org, your organization. So take your time really. Doing a larger search and finding, finding a consultant that's really going to be an excellent, supportive fit for you. Yeah, I love that. And I'm curious again to kind of follow up on that.
This is like a perfectly cadenced, um, conversation. What are some of the maybe not typical questions that a nonprofit should ask a consultant? I know some of the things I've gotten asked that I was surprised about, um, but have now developed an answer to it is, for example, you don't know. Our specific sector, or you don't know the specific work we do, how can you ramp up, you know, quickly to be able to serve our community and our staff if you don't have that subject matter expertise?
So that's one that I know that I get quite a bit. Do you have any other recommendations for questions that you think nonprofits should ask as they're going through that process of patiently taking their time to find the right consultant? I know you know, expertise and price are probably the most typical questions, but curious if you have others.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a great question. I think somewhat similar to the one that you mentioned, a lot of the nonprofits that we'll talk to are working in rural areas, and they're worried about a consultant not understanding the specific dynamics of their particular location, their town, and so I think sometimes that can be okay.
I think first an organization needs to decide, decide if their team has the capacity to. Lead that part of the lead, that part of the engagement be the be the knowledge source for what it's like for their communities and understanding their communities specifically, and if they decide that's okay and that they don't need to hire somebody that's specifically from their area.
A similar question might be, you know, you are not from Soton, Wisconsin. How will you understand the nuances or lean on our team when. You might come up against something that is culturally different for our specific community. And I think something to ask, and this is, you know, not particularly unique advice, but.
Is also asking, tell us about a time when you did that. I think it can be very easy for consultants to talk about that in theory and organizations to talk about that in theory. But when did you do that? What challenges do you anticipate and what support do you need from us as an organization, which will be really telling.
If you have somebody that says, oh, it's fine. I understand people really well, I won't need to rely on you at all. I've got this. That's a big red flag that you're not going to have that. Have some more humility and partnership within that relationship when the consultant might just kind of bulldoze ahead.
But if they wanna work with you in a, as a partner, rely on your team and hopefully have had some experience doing that, or can basically share a similar story, maybe not about a rural area, but about a subject matter expertise, then those can be, those can be great ways to get a sense of a. Really collaborative, collaborative, consultant relationship, if that's something you're looking for.
Other questions could be kind of similar ideas around DEI. I like to ask how a consultant, I, I like to ask it in a way that's not necessarily leading, but how do you, how do you communicate with people with different identities from you? How have you, how have you implemented whatever values are important to the nonprofit?
So you could talk about how have you. Prioritize diversity, equity, and inclusion. How have you prioritized accessibility? And then also asking what's your approach if things, if things go off course and our team is running behind on deliverables that you need from us, what do you do? How do you handle that?
And I think that one's a nice one because consultants all work differently. People can't address the way that they work, but are they frustrated with your team and really pushing you to get back on track? Are they changing deadlines? Are we reassessing capacity? What does that process look like To get a sense of what that relationship would look like?
And I think that's a nice one because there's no right or wrong answer to the way that a consultant adapts. But what is that going to feel like as a team dynamic? And does that sound like that would align with the way that your organization, the way that your organization wants to operate. I love that.
I especially love Lauren, that you said it's not, it doesn't necessarily denotes that there's something wrong with the consultant. It's literally about matching to the organization's values, how your staff works, et cetera. That that's so, so important for people to know. I love that. From, from your research that you've done or from the time that you've spent as the founder of C 4G, is there anything else that we haven't already talked about that you think would be important for people to know or to hear?
Yeah, so as far as investing in capacity building, which is often what organizations are doing when they're hiring consultants. Some of our research, especially from the Urban Institute, found that investing in capacity building can help ensure longer term community impacts and help with the sustainability of the organization.
So once a grant period has run out, for example, maybe to create a program, the program's created, then investing in that capacity building for your staff to continue, um, continue running the program, continue growing the program, can really increase what that. That impact looks like. We've also found that a nonprofit is more likely to just stay effective and have a sustainable future instead of just, great, we've done this grant, this program is implemented, but then having somebody to actually help look at what does that growth look like, can be really supportive as well.
I would also share, when you're hiring a consultant, one of the benefits is that. This, the consultant is not already on your team. They're not part of the power dynamics. They are not part of the culture in a really positive way. I think sometimes it feels like, ah, they'll never understand us. But in fact, that can be really helpful in assessing what are the actual capacity, capacity building needs?
How do we provide accountability? How do we, so for example, with um, diversity, equity, and inclusion support, that if an organization really wants to embed that in their work. Something's just not sticking. Things are tricky. Staff aren't necessarily feeling comfortable. A third party consultant can be an excellent resource to bring in, help understand and navigate those power dynamics in a way where they're not worried about.
Their job in the same way as an employee might be to bring those up to kind of dig in and sift through some of that muck that can happen within organizations. That's just tricky at any level. You know, I think often it's not intentionally created, but when you have people with different roles and different pay grades and different HR responsibilities, those things show up and don't always feel safe to discuss.
So bringing in a third party consultant can be an incredible resource to help. Navigate through some of that, figure out what's coming next, and then help with accountability to make sure it happens instead of just that check mark of a training or experience or strategic plan, whatever it may be, to actually make sure that that happens.
And I think they can also be a really good resource for an executive director. I mean, being on an executive team of a nonprofit, especially often the only person on the executive team on a small nonprofit. It can be incredibly lonely. So having somebody that you can go to that's not your staff, that's not your board, that can help you wade through and navigate some of those changes can be an incredible resource for an organization.
That is so important. And I, I think I just wanna underscore that around how lonely it is for either executive directors or CEOs. And, and also I think about frontline staff and program staff that feel like maybe they're alone. Uh, that is probably the thing that I hear the most often from my clients is this was so encouraging and this was so helpful to have you along, you know, with kind of linking arms together, um, to do the work.
Mm-hmm. It's so, so helpful. I also think that it's, um, you know, one of the things to kind of go back to that budget conversation, I will often encourage folks that I'm talking with when they have a kind of like, gasp about, oh, we don't have that much in our budget. It can also be really counted as professional development in my mind.
I don't know if you agree. Mm-hmm. Lauren, um, you know, when you think about a staffer getting that extra capacity support. Call up professional development and use that line item, um, especially when line items that aren't used year over year often face, um, getting cut. So it's an just an encouragement and a reminder for people to, who are listening to use that if you need to.
That's great. Yeah. Engaging a consultant or a coach as professional development, especially when it is, you know, our development director needs some support on capital campaigns that is totally growing your professional expertise and abilities. And so if that means bringing in somebody to support, which could also just be, you know, they're maybe providing some emotional support on that learning process.
Um, not as a therapist, but just as somebody who's on your side, they're on your team. Um, without all of the rest of the dynamics that come with being in an organization can be incredibly beneficial for, uh, for any employees. Professional development. I love that. I love it. Well, as we start to wrap up, I just wanna encourage everyone who's listening to go check out the Consultants for Good website.
The directory is there. There are all sorts of resources and ways that nonprofits can get involved with the directory and the network, as well as if you're listening and you're a consultant, um, check it out as well. It's a one of my favorite places to be a member of. Um, Lauren, as we close, is there anything that you'd like to leave the listener with?
Yeah. The last thing that I'll share is that we, I mean, first of all, you know, all, all of our nonprofit memberships are entirely free. We really want a more connected, more accessible, more equitable, not equitable, and more supported nonprofit sector. So. Please come on over. We wanna support you and we're constantly shifting and changing our programs based on input that we're hearing from the nonprofits and the consultants in our community.
Um, and if you're interested in digging into some more of that research around capacity building around what it looks like to work with a consultant, we just released our 2024 landscape analysis. Around working with nonprofit consultants, so you can get access to that for free on our website too, along with additional resources that we'd love to share to continue supporting you.
Amazing. We'll have all of the links for those things in the show notes, and I would encourage you to check it out. Lauren, thank you for your work, uh, both with consultants for good and all the things that you do, including that string quartet in your living room. Um, I appreciate, I appreciate you joining me for this conversation.
That's great. Thanks so much, Naomi. If you are an organizational leader, board member, or a curious staff member, take the leaving while assessment to discover your organization's transition readiness archetype. It's quick and easy, and you can find it@naomihattaway.com. Slash assessment, it's Naomi, N-A-O-M-I, hattaway, H-A-T-T-A-W-A y.com/assessment.
To learn more about leaving well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace. You can also see that information on my website. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide to shift culture and to create transformation.
Until next time, I'm your host, Naomi Hadaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a Navigation Guide for Workplace Transitions.