85: Althea Seloover on Detoxing from Workaholism + Finding Congruence
Althea Seloover is a poet, a relational map-maker, a story teller, an advocate, an abolitionist, an investigator, an entrepreneur, a creative thinker, a hope holder, a griever, a dreamer, and a friend. She provides work in the realm of prisoner liberation, self-parenting & life history investigation work in the world. She lives in Eugene, Oregon with her fiancé, two cats & lots of books. Find Althea:
For over 18 months, Althea has been passing the collection plate for a Palestinian family taking refuge in Cairo, Egypt. If you'd like to contribute to these monthly efforts, you can donate here.
Quotes:
“When I make the decision to do things differently, whether that's by choice or the circumstances have changed, to stay with the humbling, and at times humiliating, learning process of ‘I am out of my element, or I feel a little incompetent, or I don't know the answer right off the top of my head, or I don't know which direction to move in.’ Really honoring those moments as opportunities to do exactly what I have had the joy and opportunity to do for others is important.”
“Grief creates anxiety. It creates these spaces, these little sinkholes, in the relational fabric of things.”
“The elements that nurture safety, in my experience, are a sense of agency, a sense of self and connection, an understanding of the environment, the connections between things.”
“The way that we're able to shift the way that our systems work, the way that we work, the way the norms of our culture is by doing what we believe should be happening. It's making small changes. It's embodying the values.”
To learn more about Leaving Well, visit https://www.naomihattaway.com/
To support the production of this podcast, peruse my Leaving Well Bookshop or buy me a coffee.
This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
“The elements that nurture safety, in my experience, are a sense of agency, a sense of self and connection, an understanding of the environment, the connections between things.”
Transcript:
Welcome back to another conversation on the topic of leaving. Well, I'm really excited to have, I'm, I'm always really excited, um, to have folks on to talk with me, but I'm really excited because this. Is going to touch on some things that might not be common when you think about leaving wealth. So I've asked Althea Ver to come join me and talk about all of these things.
Althea Ver is a poet, a relational map maker, a storyteller, an advocate, an abolitionist, an investigator, an entrepreneur, a creative thinker, a hope holder, a griever. That's important. A griever, a dreamer, and a friend. She's in the work of prisoner liberation, self parenting and life history investigation work in the world.
She lives in Eugene, Oregon with her fiance, two Cats, and as you can see behind her, if you're watching this on YouTube, a lot of books Lovemmm, glad that you joined me. We have a lot to cover and some of the questions may kind of weave back in, you know, like weave back and forth on the topics. But I'd love to have you start by sharing.
What patterns you see in how people leave or how people are left by institutions and systems. So the context that I come with is, um, as an investigator in the criminal defense, uh, prisoner civil rights world, I do, you know, as, as you read in my bio, I do a number of different things and have definitely diversified where I show up in the world.
My primary experience with leaving and with the roles of institutions in, in leaving, um, has to do with prison and has to do with the construction of support defense advocacy around people who are trying to get out of the carceral system and reintegrate into communities and. So what I see is, you know, really wrapped up in the legal system.
You know, it's, it's a binary system in large part, and it's also, especially on the civil rights side, on the defense side, it is typically really under-resourced. So, you know, really high case loads, not enough time in the day. Uh, a lot of workaholism, all of those pieces. And so. You know, in my experience, there's a lot of, something wraps up and you just move onto the next thing.
There's not a lot of ceremony around celebration, there's not a lot of ceremony or ritual around, um, acknowledgement. You know, especially for folks like myself who are in support roles. So supporting attorneys in advocating, representing people the ways that. It's, I mean, just the under resourcing results in neglecting the relationships themselves.
And I think, you know, one of, one of the visions that I've held for a long time and really tried to enact to the best of my ability in my work is staying, and that looks. Like, you know, somebody getting out of prison and being available to continue being in relationship with that person. Um, even if my participation in their representation or advocacy has ended formally, and, you know, so being available to take a call if somebody is in crisis or, or just, you know, needs to talk through something.
But so often, especially when it's the attorneys taking the lead, it's just sort of a boom, boom, boom. We do this, we're done. Move on to the next thing. That's that. It's so interesting that you say that. Like I literally had a reaction in my body when you said about the choice to stay because I think it's true across all of the, the spectrums we have, we put ourselves in a box of where our relationships start, and then we assume that they end or we.
Prefer that they end when the connection to that thing ends. And I think that's just so powerful about being available to stay, um, long after society or the workplace tells us that we should. That's really great. Yeah. And there's, there's one other piece I would add around the role that professionalism plays in all of this.
You know, I, I think when. Identity wise and ego wise, when we are really aligned with our professional identities and the specific role that we are embodying in, in our job, you know, in, in the work that we're up to, that it's so easy to forget about the human pieces, forget about the really deeply relational work that inevitably goes on as we are.
Supporting, advocating, stewarding, witnessing listening, um, correcting, you know, all of, all of those elements and how one of the most common things that's happening for folks that are incarcerated is. Losing people and, and the, the way that structurally, the whole carceral system is set up to deprive and set up to prevent people from having access, whether that's family members having to go through a complicated process to even get their phone registered, to be able to accept calls.
So, so recognizing that there's actually a stewardship around the actual relational elements of getting to know somebody and how. There, there's attachment, you know, involved in all of that. And so really, um, for me, part of, part of what I see is the really abrupt severing that occurs for people and the ways that that impacts people long term and impacts their willingness, their ability, their vulnerability around kind of building new relationships in the future.
Yeah. Well, and that severing also brings to mind, and, and you do this work too, in looking at your linea lineage and your ancestry and that kind of, uh, body of work that you do. Mm-hmm. This all is stuff that's happened to us before. We've had relationships severed, we've had abandonment happen before, and then it just keeps perpetuating.
I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about your, I, I love that you said that you're perpetually, like reinventing what you offer to the world because you, you provide reentry support and, and honestly, you're. Part of the glue that helps reentry even happen for folks that are engaged with incarceration systems and also you have a really deep relationship with detoxing from workplace culture and, um, workaholism.
What do those two things have in common as it relates to the relationship to our worth, our belonging and our healing? I love that question. So I'm a, a little over four years into my own work recovery and, uh, that that kind of came about after burning out real, real hard. And I was somebody that. Was just in kind of hustle mode all the time.
It was like, okay, you know, a, a case ends. There's no time to wait. You jump to the next one because we're talking about people's lives. We're talking about justice, we're talking about liberation. All of these things. So when, when I crashed it was, it was so challenging. It was so humbling and. In, in the moments of feeling deep, confusion, feeling really lost.
What I turned to was everything that I'd learned from folks inside and folks that have gone through the transition of having to reinvent their world, having to pick up new structure, having to pick up new tools. I mean, a bit of a brave new world, right? Like going. Going from incarceration and, and the vast majority of people that I'm working with have been incarcerated for decades.
Um, I, I primarily work with people who have convict, who have been convicted of homicide offenses and are serving indeterminate life sentences. So they typically have to go through some sort of parole process or other other process to be able to actually secure their release date and get out. And so.
Looking at how different life is when you're inside versus outside, and all of the elements that have to be rebuilt. Both of the logistical and structural pieces, but also of self and all of the ways that you know, inside prison, but also out here culturally, we're really, really encouraged to load our plates really full.
And oftentimes we don't have a huge choice about load loading. Our plates really full. Whether that's, you know, needing to make enough money to make ends meet, whether that's, you know, finding your place in community, whether that's, you know, living by your own values and helping and participating and, you know, doing your part.
The way that those two elements relate for me is congruence, like really tuning into. What is true for me in thought and in body? What is what's true on the inside as well as the outside, and trying to find that alignment in how to move and recognizing that. It, it might be different from day to day, and that when I make the decision, when any of us make the decision to do things differently, whether that's by choice or the circumstances have changed and it can't be done the same way as it was before, those methods are no longer going to work to actually stay with the humbling and at times humiliating learning process of like, okay, I am out of my element, or I feel a little incompetent here.
Or I don't know the answer right off the top of my head. I don't know which direction to move in. And really honoring those moments as opportunities to do exactly what I have had the, you know, the joy and opportunity to do for others. And that's, and. You know, pick up the phone and call somebody and say, Hey, like, I need help in this moment.
I, I need thought partnership, you know, um, or I just need to speak this out loud, or, you know, whatever it may be. Going to the resource centers, going to the places where. Like literally people are there and available to support around transitions and around the moments of, I don't know, um, and not just trying to do things on my own or kind of remain in that isolation or fake it till you make it, you know?
Yeah. Well, and and while you were talking too, it made me think and remember we've had this conversation before. Around. You mentioned like sometimes you do have to go from one job to another bank account. Bills obligations require, you know, responsibilities. But I think we have, as a society, uh, use that as a reason to also avoid slowing down and, and not rushing to the next thing so that we can process what did we learn from this?
What, what lessons are coming from this departure, this transition, this ending, uh, that we can take with us. So I appreciate you bringing that up. I would love to talk a little bit about grief, both the fact that our society, especially in the United States, will just. Use that as the container. We're allergic to grief.
We, we don't know how to talk about it. We d definitely don't like to talk about it in the workplace. I would love if you have encouragement or even just some examples of, of how grief shows up in workplaces or in any setting when they try and quote unquote move on from leaders or staff. Staff or programming.
When programming shuts down, uh, when we haven't created ritual or practice to mark those shifts or those moments. The way that I see grief come up is in losing trust. So trust breaches in, uh, resentment, in bitterness, in, you know, I, I think it, it comes up in the loss of connection and the loss of. The, the links and the flow operating as before.
I see it both in leadership transition in, you know, like instances where an attorney gets off a case and suddenly there's a gap in either. Uh, you know, the, the support that somebody has or even the ability to kind of move forward with a process. And then, you know, I see it when folks get out of prison and so often somebody will get out that was really significant to a group of people or to a program that existed inside that they volunteered with, and they get out and it's, you know, the, the hole is not filled.
And so there's, there's that sense of absence, that awareness of absence, which I think. I think grief creates anxiety, right? It creates these sort of spaces, these, these little sinkholes in the relational fabric of things. Was it you that shared the documentary about, uh, the men who were incarcerated, who made quilts for foster children?
I don't think so. Okay. So I watched a documentary about that, and one of the things that they touched on very, very briefly was one of the folks who led that program. So they were given. Sewing machines and fabric, and they would get a letter of, of a child who's in foster care and it would, you know, say their name, their age, and their favorite colors or something.
One of the gentlemen who led that program got transferred and it was done without any kind of ceremony. They, one day, all they came to, to work on the quilts and he wasn't there. And it just was so poignant around that hole and that gap that happens when someone leaves and when we don't have a way to process it.
So maybe talking a little bit about that, what could safety look like around exits? When safety wasn't offered to begin with or when, when we're working inside of a system that's not built for transitions and processing. And, and maybe that's too kind of elusive of a question, but I'm wondering what you would, what, what you would say about safety and, and exits.
So, I mean, safety is, I think of safety as being such an elusive concept generally, one that we, culturally in the United States, we've really tried to lock down as being about, um, security and that, you know, safety, I think of like the elements that nurture safety in my experience are a sense of agency, a sense of self and connection, an understanding of the.
Environment, the network, the, the connections between things. And so, you know, the, the example that you gave from that documentary is such a classic one, it's so common. And oftentimes it's kinda orchestrated by the system. It's by design that not having ceremony around the things is stifling, right? It stifles the energy, the momentum that builds and.
That's often very, very intentional within the Carceral system. But I think, you know, a lot of our institutional systems that when we are in grief, we are suppressed. I mean, grief is oftentimes, especially disenfranchised grief, right? Where we're not actually given spaces or containers to participate. So, you know, a really classic example of that is.
An incarcerated person has a loved one who dies on the outside and there's a funeral that happens, and obviously they're not able to be there and, you know, so, so this process happens, or, you know, in, in the case of the documentary, right? Like, this group shows up, but this person isn't there and what happens next?
And so in, in the case of especially disenfranchised grief. You know, like I said earlier, like the bitterness, the resentments, and also the shame that arises of, you know, just suddenly the interruption of what was positive, no longer being. Mm-hmm. And, um, I think I might have lost the, the thread of your question just a little bit.
Can you, can you repeat Yeah. Thinking about, and, and maybe we could just even pivot into a little bit of like somatics and the body remembering, because you, you touched on safety, which was one of the things I had asked. Mm-hmm. I'm curious. What you found in your work, and this kind of pulls all of your work together, your lineage and ancestry, work with systems that are built to not let us feel joy and safety and all those things.
How can our body's intelligence offer a compass for navigating change and loss and transition and grief? Maybe that's why we take it. I would come back to congruence. I would come back to the practice of tuning into my own awareness of what is lining up, what is matching. So, you know, if, if I am feeling angry about the end of something.
Being able to hold that, acknowledge that, and express that in some way rather than trying to shove it down rather than stifling it. I think it's also what opens us up to safety is, you know, safety, like the construction of safety around the, the notion of agency, the, the notion that if I am not safe where I am, I can go somewhere else.
That's an, that is a demonstration of agency. That's the use of agency. And so when we're in these dynamics, being able. To tune into the body and, and of course for incarcerated people and for people that are kind of trapped within systems or tangled within dynamics of systems. And I mean, that can sometimes be workplaces as well, right?
Like if your sense of safety and security is coming from a particular paycheck at a particular place and simultaneously there are safety issues, um, whether those are emotional safety issues, identity, physical, whatever it may be, figuring out how. How can I tune into my own congruence so that I can use that compass and shift, I can orient myself with small steps and, and it often is like, you know, I, I often will think of the metaphor of like a tangled chain, like a chain that has a knot in it, and just how.
Like the tiny, tiny pics you have to make and that if you try to look at the thing, you probably can't actually see, oh, I just have to pull this and then it's gonna come undone. Like you just sort of have to trust. Like if I just keep picking at it, something is going to give at some point. With, with that picking and like bringing it back to the somatics, one of, one of my favorite concepts in, in the world of somatics is, is the shape that we take that in any role we play, in any, any space we're in, we take shape and that, you know, we can call it emotional anatomy.
So if I'm feeling sad, like I might be. More closed in. If I'm feeling shame, I might be kind of sneaky or hiding, right? Like those are the shapes that our body is taking and is often then reflected in the way that we speak and the thoughts that we're having and the interactions that we're having and the energy that we're putting off.
And so like separate and apart from solutions since you know, so much of it requires creativity, building that sense of agency and that sense of self-awareness. Through acknowledgement, recognition, feeling the shapes that we are taking. And then in the moments where I become aware of like, oh, this is not the shape.
Like, I feel gross about this shape, or I don't feel good about the shape, or I, I, I don't wanna be in this shape forever figuring out what are the ways that I can take a different shape? What are. What are, what's the next movement, the next practice, the next dedication that moves me out of that shape and into a different one in my work that shows up in everything from talking with people about, okay, is all you're doing, you know, going out to the weight pile and pumping iron really hard?
Or are you also stretching? Are you also. You know, holding yourself. Are you also, you know, are you also massaging your arms afterwards? What are the ways that you are allowing your shape to take form? What are, and and really thinking about what are the habits, what are the practices that result in our shapes and.
You know, and, and so I see like, especially around overdoing, I see it come up so much inside that, you know, especially folks that need to see the parole board in order to get out or otherwise need to have sort of a, you know, a resume of the good stuff they've done that. Just jumping at every opportunity you can and then suddenly having such a full plate that you don't have that time and you're not making that space to be able to tend to and remain aware.
And of course we do that out here as well. Um, but the stakes are really different. And the ability like, you know, I think about. In the Carceral system, people are literally trying to escape a system. They're trying to like go on their path, however, they may do that to get elsewhere. Whereas in the professional world, so much of the time we are trying to become, we are trying to embody a role such that we can continue to ascend in some way.
Right. And, and so, you know, it's an ascension. Kind of in both directions. But I mean, I, I think of prison as a dungeon, right? So you're trying to ascend to above ground and out here, oftentimes workplace culture is we're trying to ascend to the stars, right? To wealth, to prestige, to titles. And so recognizing in.
In the, the consideration of shape and the consideration of somatics, um, in consideration of grief, like, where do I find myself? Where at the end of my day, what shape am I taking at the end of the week? What shape am I taking at the end of the quarter, the year? Where have I found myself? Where have I led myself and where have I been led and how the participation and the.
Obedience, I suppose within whatever systems, whatever workplace culture we're navigating thinking about, like, am I leaving myself behind anywhere? And how can my body, how can my feelings, how can my experience inform me about the direction that I'm going in and the place that I may be arriving at? And is it aligned?
Is it for me? I'm, I just keep writing things down because we could take this in like a whole nother hour long conversation. I'm encouraging you as you listen to this, to pause the, the listening or the YouTube video and go to Althea's Disobedient Goods website and order some of the stickers, because you've also launched those stickers as a beautiful way to track habits and to notice and to slow down and to capture more of the what's happening in your days and your weeks.
They're beautiful. I also love what you just said about in consideration of. Grief or of joy. Um, and those three questions, where have I found myself? Where have I led myself and where have I been led or so potent? Um, for all of this, I, I'm curious, um, if you could talk to us a little bit about how do we, taking into consideration everything that you've just shared with us, and I mean, this is just barely scratching the surface, but how do we interrupt?
These systems and these ways of beings and this harm, how do we interrupt it with integrity? How can transitions and the being left behind or, or as trying to leave something be healing, uh, instead of more tangled up? How do we, how do we, how do we continue to not be more tangled up in that knot, um, that you were talking about?
Yeah, making decisions about what we're swimming in, um, how far out we're swimming into the depths, really being honest about capacity, about energy, about desire, about balance, where I really got out of alignment with my own integrity in my work, was working all the time, was working too much and not taking care.
Of myself not recognizing that. Yeah, my brain could keep going. Yeah, I could put more hours in. But I mean, to put it really simply, there's only so much murder that can swim in my head at one time without being existentially overwhelmed. And so, you know, for me, like there's a lot of. Survivor's guilt that, you know, I feel less and less, but just the idea and I, and I think this shows up in social justice culture so much like the, the drive to hustle and the notion of like, I should do as much as I can possibly do, and.
Sadly, that's not actually what gets us to liberation. And so for myself, you know, you mentioned the stickers and like that was born out of my own process of realigning with my own integrity and finding like, okay, I can't do my work 24 7 and I can't even really do it full time anymore. And it, it doesn't mean that I'm divested from the work itself.
It's really that I've invested in. Caring for myself and being a full human at all times. Yeah. You know, that means the simplest things of like making sure I'm eating enough and drinking enough water, making sure that I'm moving my body in the ways that it's asking for, um, that I'm grieving, that I'm actually feeling my feelings separate and apart from the, the moments where the feelings are just firing and becoming fuel.
One of, one of the most helpful things that I've come to understand about workaholism and, and compulsive doing generally is that it's both a substance addiction and a process addiction. So the substance is adrenaline and the process is doing, and so when I think about how easily just on a, a neurological level, a physiological level.
Feel like strong, strong feelings oftentimes translate into adrenaline, especially if those feelings are arising in the course of doing so. Whether that's I'm having a really strong feeling, oh, I'm gonna go shopping, or, oh, I'm having a really strong feeling. Oh, I'm gonna bust this memo out really fast. Um, oh, I'm having a strong feeling.
I'm gonna fire this fiery email off. Being able to. Slow down, being able to just be with what is separate and apart from the actual doing. And I find that that has moved me further and further from running on adrenaline, which I mean is really, really, really hard on. Our bodies. Like, it's not, it's not ideal.
And you know, we, we know pretty well at this point within western allopathic medicine as well as eastern medicine and, you know, kind of what cultures of the world have to offer like that, that is the path to illness, that is the path to our bodies starting to deconstruct. And so the integrity piece being like.
I want to participate in beautiful things happening. I want to participate in justice, but that includes me too. And you know, I had, I had this moment in early recovery where I was, I was sitting in my favorite river. I was just sitting in the water and I had this realization that indigenous water defenders are not just protecting water and fighting for clean water and healthy water for.
Future generations or for other people, it's also for them because we all need water. We are all made up of water. And it was a moment for myself of recognizing the missing link in my own practice and practice around integrity was the inclusion of myself and recognizing like I can't actually leave myself behind and be in my integrity, which undermines the integrity of the work that I show up to do.
So good. So good. So I have three points and then my last question for you. First I wanna just acknowledge that the beautiful thing that I love about your disobedient, um, good stickers is that they're not as much of like a tracker as much of a way for you to notice what has happened. It's almost like past tense.
You go back to say like, what did I do today and how does that impact me? It's, it's, I just wanna tell the, the person listening. Like, it's not, they're not like, drink your water, check, drink your, you know, take a shower check. It's more like. What did I need today and how did I, how did I honor that? I also just wanna underscore the beautiful thing that you just talked about, like the fight and the work is also for you.
That is, that is powerful and I think that we forget that often. My last question for you is, if you could, it is more, less of a question, more of just a request for your, your wisdom. What would you leave the person who is listening or watching around? Their legacy and what it means to be witnessed and to be remembered.
I, I think personally, that legacy, I always tell people it's like you can only contribute at like 50% to your legacy. 'cause the other 50% is how others remember you and you can't control that. What would you say when you think about overdoing over consumption, workaholism, being in systems that aren't for your safety, all the things we've talked about, how do you, how would you encourage someone about being remembered and being witnessed?
Well, I think. In the long term, when I look back at the legacies of people that I admire or ancestors and just the truth of what I see their legacies as being leaders, you know, whoever it may be, the way that we're able to shift the way that our systems work, the way that we work, the way you know the norms, the norms of our culture is by doing.
What we believe should be happening. It's, it's making small changes. It's embodying the values. I, I think about praxis so much, right? That the meeting of values, ethics with the actual, doing the actual practice of the thing, right? I can have all the books on my shelf. And I can read all the things, but if I'm not integrating, if I'm not saying what is here for me?
What is this nugget, what is the seed that I am trying to plant in my own self, in my own doing, in my own ripples? What is that that. That's, I mean, that's what I think about with my legacy also, like thinking about what is the role of my ego in my desire for a particular legacy? What, what role is the things that have not yet happened or the things I have not yet done, or the accolades I have not yet, you know, gotten, what role does that future play in my sense of what I want my legacy to be?
Because what if I'm just thinking about my legacy as. Who I am and what I have done and how I have participated up to now, up to the present moment, rather than thinking about like, how can I do more? How can I be seen as greater? How can I, how can I be? I mean, I think of it almost as like a form of future tripping.
And so if I'm thinking about my legacy in the present moment. What, what are the seeds that I have sprinkled? What are, what are the seeds that I have sown? What, what are the crops that I have brought to fruition? Where have I shared them? And you know, and recognizing too, like, I mean, like you said, 50% of legacy is up to what is remembered and what, like other people's narration of the thing.
And so, yeah. Accepting sort of the embarrassment and humility in all of that, that I'm not actually in control of how I'm seen. I'm just in control of what I get up to and what I do. I would invite folks to think about the right now and what are, what are the words, what are the things that come to mind of.
What you've planted and both the things you continue to tend to, but also what are the things you've left behind and how are they tended to today, and how does that, you know, whether your name is on it or not. Like what, what has been born as a result of your participation in the thing? There's so much sweet relief and release that I have found when I divest from my name being attached to the thing.
Not only does it. Honor other people in the sharing of the mic or the sharing of the power or the whatever it is, but it just takes off the edge of having to perform when my name's unattached. Um, it also, in a weird way, is a sense of freedom to not have your name attached to something because then you can truly show up in ways that might have felt scary if you're attaching your name to it and that reputation piece.
So. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Um, is there anything left that you want to say on, on all of these topics, um, before we close out? I think the, the last thing that I'll say is just really thinking about the tending, thinking about the tending to self, thinking about the tending to what is thinking about the tending to.
What can be done next? Where are the invitations? What, what is calling for you? And, and again, like the the ways in which it doesn't have to be linear, it doesn't have to be super clean. It doesn't have to be the, the next logical thing. It can also be like, again, that congruence, that shape, that awareness of where am I trying to go?
Separate and apart from the ego and the titles, but actually like what impact am I trying to have here in this world that I find myself alive in? I love that. Thank you so much for, I mean, not only the work that you do, and I know we just talked about doing the work and that not being what we wanna talk about, but the work that you say yes to and the way that you show up, um, and the way that you answer.
The paths and the callings that lead you in, in things that, that offer new ways for us to interact, um, with ourselves and our, our worth and our belonging. Um, I appreciate you and I'm so glad we had this conversation. Thank you for having me and for doing the work that you do. If you are an organizational leader, board member, or a curious staff member, take the leaving while assessment to discover your organization's transition readiness archetype.
It's quick and easy, and you can find it@naomihattaway.com. Slash assessment, it's Naomi, N-A-O-M-I, hattaway, H-A-T-T-A-W-A y.com/assessment. To learn more about leaving well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace. You can also see that information on my website.
It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide to shift culture and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host, Naomi Hadaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a Navigation Guide for Workplace Transitions.