04: Kelly Hoey, Build your Dream Network Author, on Leaving Well
Networking expert + coach, J. Kelly Hoey is the author of Build Your Dream Network: Forging Powerful Relationships In A Hyper-Connected World (Tarcher Perigee/Penguin Random House). She’s embarking on her second book which focuses on the unique networks women need for professional success.
Kelly’s career has evolved from law to management to entrepreneurship. Being invited to lead a global business network for women, co-founding a startup accelerator, appearing on CNBC’s Power Pitch, contributing to various publications (including New York Times, Inc., Fast Company, and Forbes), and co-creating (along with moderating) the Meet The Innovators speaker series at the Apple Store in SoHo (New York), are a few of her unanticipated career highlights. Kelly has worked with a range of organizations, including Google, Cisco, Oracle, Comcast, AMC Networks, Capital One, Canadian Digital Media Network, New Zealand Trade and Enterprise, National Australian Bank, Westpac, Prudential, PGA of America, Pfizer, Bristol-Myers, and The Tory Burch Foundation.
This episode is inspired by Kelly’s recent “peeved off” moment after experiencing an unfortunate exit from a community space. During our conversation we discussed keeping the recruitment promise, the reality that community tending and the leaving process is everyone’s job, and how to measure the cost of terrible departures.
“Think of your recruitment promise as more than just when they walk in the door. Understanding that exits are part of your brand, so decide which parts of your brand can go all the way through to the exit.
How are you managing your exit interviews? How are your exit interviews aligned with the recruitment promise you made to them on the way in? ”
Additional Quotes:
“How can we calculate the value and the volume of each loss? How do we put a value on cynicism that gets shot into your organization because someone has chosen to leave and they haven’t been treated well? How do you value a decline of culture? How do you measure a misalignment of talent value? You need to look at your brand and value statement as a company and say, “do we live up to this in terms of how we value our people when they leave?”
“It’s confusing to me that you would flush so much phenomenal goodwill. The person who’s leaving could be a referral source for talent, or business, or new members.”
To connect with Kelly:
Kelly’s website
Kelly’s book: Build your Dream Network
Recommended Reading:
To learn more about Leaving Well, click here.
My Bookshop.org Leaving Well library has many resources to support your workplace transition journey!
To support and contribute to the production costs of this podcast:
This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
Transcription:
But, you know, you're really putting a value on human beings and how do you put a value and perhaps, you know, a cynicism that gets shot into your organization because somebody has chosen to leave and you haven't treated them? Well, I mean, you know, how do you value, you know, perhaps a decline in culture?
How do you value a misalignment of human talent values? But that's where you really want to look at, like, your brand statement, your value statement. You know, as a company and say, do we live up to this in terms of how we value our people when they leave?
This is Leaving Well, where we unearth and explore the realities of leaving a job, role, project, or title with intention and purpose. And when possible, I'm Naomi Hattaway, your host. I will bring you experiences and lessons learned about necessary endings in the workplace with nuanced takes from guests on topics such as grief, confidence, leadership, and career development.
Braided throughout will be solo episodes sharing my best practices and leaving well framework. Expect to be inspired. Challenged and reminded that you too can embed and embody the art and practice of leaving well as you seek to leave your imprint in this world. Networking expert and coach Kelly Hoey is the author of Build Your Dream Network, Forging Powerful Relationships in a Hyper Connected World.
She's embarking on her second book, which focuses on the unique networks that women need for professional success. Kelly's career has evolved from law to management to entrepreneurship, being invited to lead a global business network for women, co founding a startup accelerator, appearing on CNBC's PowerPitch, contributing to various publications, including the New York Times, Inc.Fast Company and Forbes and co creating and moderating the Meet the Innovators Speaker Series at the Apple Store in Soho are a few of her unanticipated career highlights. Kelly has worked with a range of organizations, including Google, Cisco, Oracle, Comcast, AMC Networks, Capital One, Canadian Digital Media Network, New Zealand Trade and Enterprise, National Australian Bank, Westpac, Prudential. PGA of America, Pfizer, Bristol Myers, and the Tory Birch Foundation. Kelly, you've been doing a lot of things that are really important. And here I thought I'd start my career and go work for a law firm and still be there. So there we go. Thank goodness for transitions and pivots, right? A lot of entries and exits.
Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to talk with you because recently you emailed your newsletter subscriber, of which I am one. And you were in, and as you put it, quote unquote, rather peeved. Moment about folks leaving organizations, and I would love for you to share a bit more about what prompted that email and your feelings on the topic.
Well, it's something I've thought quite a bit about, and you and I will jump into all those gory details, but that particular networking pro tip was because I'm part of a, you know, I'm a paid membership of voluntary community. And I decided that, you know what, it's a, it's literally when you want to look at someone like a breakup and say.
It's me. It's not you. And it truly the case that this, you know, it's a great community, but it's just Not for me after the couple of years I've now been on it. And so I reached out and said, thank you. I'm not going to renew all of that kind of stuff. And I got a nice note back that said, Oh, we're sorry to see you go.
You can always come back anytime. And then I immediately noticed. Even though I still had, you know, a month or so to go on my membership, that all my membership privilege had, yes, I see your eyebrows, your mouth, you're like, what? All of my membership kind of benefits had been literally revoked. I could just, like, stand there like a kid looking at Christmas window display, you know, Saks Bergdorf's in New York.
They do wonderful holiday windows. And I, and I was like, you gotta be kidding me. You've got to be kidding me. And so, yeah, that's what prompted that. My initial reaction to that is, to what end? That's exactly it. Like, hey, you're welcome back anytime. What? So I can be like a kid pressing my face against the glass?
Like, I think it's one of those things that, whether, I mean, you and I can dive in more deeply when it's a corporate, you know, or, you know, sort of a paid employer relationship, but I think it's one of those things that equally applies and maybe even more so with voluntary and membership communities, um, people do so much to entice you in, you know, the value you provide while you're there, but also how you allow people to exit it.
Gracefully and with ease, you know, in terms of the word of mouth of them recommending and mentioning a network. So, so, yeah, that's what prompted that, you know, it reminds me about some, some really quickly things that come to mind. What if instead of it being revoked right away, the response was, we're even going to give you a little ticker calendar to let you know, like, 3 weeks left, 2 weeks left, 1 week left, like, there's so many different ways that it could have been even more celebrated that they really appreciated having you for the time that they did instead of just an immediate revocation. So crazy. Yeah, like I said, I, I can still. Get into part of the group, but, you know, in terms of what I'm able to do, you know, and and I don't know where an impression would be like, oh, if we just leave her with her full membership privileges, she'll I don't know what they think I'm going to do.
You know, what? Sabotage my own reputation by. Posting absurd things. Um, gosh, I haven't done that in two years. Why would I start doing that now? So yeah, it's all very odd. And like I said, again, that kind of, you know, that special kind of nurturing you need to do with, with Community in whatever form it takes knowing that it's everybody's responsibility.
You know, how someone is welcomed in and how they leave. I think you touched on it a little bit and I'd love to go deeper around the word of mouth and the reputation just because you decided that for right now. It's not. A current fit free going forward doesn't mean that you wouldn't have recommended.
It to a ton of people in the future, and I'd love your thoughts about, you know, kind of the bad apple or the bad actor that we often assume that someone's going to do something terrible as they leave and what would happen if we instead gave that grace and offered some space for the exit to be more of a lovely experience.
Well, you know, you're just like laughing and at the same time. So for a couple of years, I was a head of Alumni programs. I had been professional development in my programs for a global law firm. And when I took over the alumni role, which of course in an in a business model, which is up and out, Which I think, you know, also applies to membership organization, where there is churn, where there is turnover.
I used to say when I, when I took over that role, I said it was everybody's responsibility how someone left. That the business model was up and out, and the chances of them, people going to a competitor was highly likely, but no one's careers are linear anymore in the legal profession, you know, it's not like you left the law firm and then went and became a GC, like, people go all over the place, they bounce around now, so they may leave your firm, go to another firm, then they end up as a GC, like, you never know, so I used to say to people, unless someone leaves the firm in an orange jumpsuit, You know, unless there are handcuffs when they are leaving the institution, be graceful, be kind, because you never know where they're going to land.
And memories are long. And if the last thing they remember Is rudeness. If the last thing they remember is, um, I don't know, difficulties in getting their 401k transferred over, if the last thing they remember is problems with their last paycheck, if the last thing they remember is a dispute over their number of vacation days, fill in the blank, fill in the blank, fill in the blank, whatever it may be.
The last thing you remember is your, you know, membership rights being revoked. Yeah. It's a pretty bad taste to try and wipe out. And, and that, you know, in our little Neanderthal brains, that's the last thing, you know, that kind of, maybe it's because I was listening to something about the Game of Thrones writer earlier.
I'm like, that kind of thing, like all of a sudden, like all those years of goodwill when we were in battle together are quickly forgotten and you are now the enemy. Well, and it's so, it's so interesting that you were talking about memories. Being long because memories are long and networks are tight sometimes and you're the queen of networking and I just think it's really, really short sighted to assume that someone, an individual who leaves, whether it's an online community and membership.
Or a job is not going to know some folks that you might need to be in relationship with currently or in the future. Well, I think there was a time with networks, Naomi, where we could say, um, and the whole old school notion and idea around networking sort of, you know, someone in a higher position of power.
Is, you know, the corner office, the big title, the whatever. That person is going to bestow some networking largesse on us and, you know, pave the way so that, you know, our life is easy and all the rest of it. We clearly live in an era where your opportunities can come from anyone, anywhere, anytime. And people are choosing roles or choosing paths that look a lot different than a very, sort of, Thou shalt go to university, get a degree.
Put your head down, do good work, et cetera, et cetera. And so it behooves you to be just a decent human being to whoever you encounter because you just don't know. And just because they are, um, you know, the administrative assistant or the barista or the whatever, you don't know who they know. You don't know who they could refer your product, your service, your something to.
So, you know, I've had amazing opportunities in my life because of interns. Oh, you're kind to that summer intern. And then four or five years later, they're in a different course in their life. And they're remembering someone who was pivotal in their, You know, career development, personal development, their journey in life.
That is so true. We had an intern come work at a nonprofit that I was in for a while. And we really wanted to have this young person feel welcomed and a part of the team. Um, and after the first two weeks, she just kept saying over and over, this is the best experience of my whole life. And we were like, well, that's good.
We're so happy to have you. Sure enough, at the end of her internship, she brings her uncle. Who is a very large philanthropic benefactor in the community. We had no idea and it turned out well for everyone. I'll just say and, you know, I think it's so interesting. It's it's so true how we treat each other.
How we treat each other in those spaces really does matter. And and that very specifically comes around when we think about exits. You mentioned in that same newsletter, the concept of optimistic residue, and you were talking about the lingering memory or the lingering experience from onboarding. And I'd love to hear from you what top 1 or 2 ways an organization or a membership community, a leader could help keep optimism going kind of through the middle and then the end.
More importantly, my question is about the exit and beyond. Yeah, that, you know, I think that optimistic residue that's sort of picks up on, you know, there's really good social science research that. Uh, you know, re reviving established old friendships where there's been a lapse of time is a lot easier than building new friendships.
And I think particularly when so much goes into recruiting someone into an organization, into a group, you know, they sort of stop the design of What that all means. Oh, you're here now. Good. We can forget about you. Right? Rather than saying this is a journey. Oh, this promise. We've made this enthusiasm as they've walked in the door.
Now, how do we, like, where's the touch points that we keep up this promise? And so that's where I think, you know, thinking of that recruitment promise as. More than just, what do you do when they come in the door, I mean, I remember one job I started, I literally called the partner who would, you know, so enthusiastic to hire me from the elevator bank at the new firm on my first day and said, I have no instructions.
Where do I go? Like anyone want to tell me where I should be? And they're like, Oh, right. You're here today. Oh, right. Like nothing was done. Right. It was calm. It was so bad. It was comical and I was so relieved to leave where to go where I was going and leave where I was coming from. But, you know, it didn't turn into a nightmare, but it was a little bit of a let down after.
So you sort of say, Hey, how do we like, understanding that this is part of your brand and what is that brand promise? Thing. Goes through the full cycle. And then I would say, you know, really thinking about that exit and and how are you managing. That interview, how are you managing and making it easy on the way out, knowing that someone, short of leaving in an orange jumpsuit, they have, and I've got nothing against regular orange jumpsuit, right?
So, you know, short of the FBI or someone, you know, coming in, you know, having the full SWAT team closing down, you know, your office and sort of a Wall Street, you know. Michael Douglas kind of way, sort of saying, all right, how does this exit interview process, how does it align with the promise we made on the way in?
And what does this, you know, how does this make this person who is leaving feel? And more importantly, how does it send a message to everybody else who may be in the interview process? Or who is already here, because you sort of think if you don't treat this person fairly, who's been a solid contributor, a solid team member, whatever, how are they going to treat the rest of us?
And so it can be really like a poison inkwell.
Well, and I think that there's an assumption that when people leave, they no longer talk to the same folks that stay. And I'm glad you Brought that up because that is such a culture, uh, moment to treat everyone well, not just those that are staying, but those that are leaving. I also love that you brought up the exit interview because I think personally, I've always looked at the exit interview as risk mitigation for the organization to pull out anything that they may not know that could bite them in the rear end later.
But I love that you said it should align with the promise. They made to the person when they started and, and the way that they conduct the exit interview. And I think that's beautiful. Like there's times where just, Hey, life happens, you know, there's only so many people who can, you know, advance to the next role.
You know, so I like to jokingly say to people, like, we can get disappointed with the numbers of women or minorities who, um, are, um, CEOs of a fortune 1000 company. But there's only a thousand roles, right? So there's going to be a lot of disappointed people who didn't get that role. It's just, there's a numbers game.
So there's all sorts of reasons. You know, it may be health. It may be lifestyle. It may be, heck, it might be a bigger opportunity that, you know, you can't match the compensation. Or it might just be, hey, this is just not a right fit. You know, kind of for me right now, and so it's just confusing to me that you would flush so much phenomenal goodwill, both with the person who's leaving, who could be a referral source for talent or business or.
new members or whatever, plus the fact that, you know, in so many institutions and organizations and entities, we make, because of the amount of time or, or original reasons for joining, we make these solid connections. I, I think about with the group I was in when people say, Oh, you're long, no longer a member, you know, and if they're talking to me face to face, they're going to see a look on my face that I was not amused with how I was treated.
And it was, it was, it was shocking. There's a couple of folks that I think really bring beautiful structure and intention around community care, specifically for online communities. And one of the things that I've always thought about in learning from them and in managing my own online community ages ago is you kind of referenced it with the touch points, you know, thinking of a customer journey.
If we know. That attrition often happens. That means you have to look at your data. You need to look at your numbers. But if you know that attrition happens at a certain point, what could you do the week before that's likely to happen? If a membership starts to peter off after 2 months, what can you do?
You know, month one and a half to keep folks and then to your point about your experience, what could you do at the end to just bring your brand, the joy or whatever it is, it's your brand piece of the community to the forefront and it's just such a missed opportunity. Yeah, it happens all too frequently you think of the volume.
And value of the loss that is probably you can't even calculate, like, so many different metrics that you can start talent and business and productivity and all those things when we see someone that we, like, enjoy working with and thinking, particularly the work environment, you know, not treated to the value of, you know, their contribution.
You know, as they leave. Do you have thoughts about why we don't have better tracking mechanisms in place for what exits cost us? I think they do a poor job of, I mean, there's, recruiting firms are usually the ones who do a kind of, here's the value of, of what it costs you to replace someone. And, and, you know, you're factoring in on a dollar kind of figure.
But it's, it's such an, in some ways, you know, hey, here's what you pay or, you know, thinking in the legal industry, here's what you pay in a recruiters fee. Here's what you do here, here's what you do there, you know, and then you come up with a. Back of the envelope number, but you know, you're really putting a value on human beings.
And how do you put a value in perhaps, you know, a cynicism that gets shot into your organization because somebody has chosen to leave and you haven't treated them well. I mean, not, you know, how, how do you value, you know, perhaps a decline in culture. How do you value a misalignment of human talent values?
I don't know, but that's where you, you really want to look at like your brand statement, your value statement, you know, as a company and say, do we live up to this in terms of how we value our people when they leave? Well, and you, you've got a path in your career of, you know, different industry pillars, but I think a lot of folks say in the, in the legal industry are going from one law firm to another law firm to another law firm or in the nonprofit, you know, affordable housing nonprofits, they're going kind of in the same circular pattern and talking about cynicism, we end up, I think, often handing tired and bitter, frustrated people, Thank you.
Thank you. To who should be our industry peers or our colleagues, um, in the same fight together. And what does that get us? It's kind of the same question at the beginning to what end do we not manage exits? Well, yeah, it doesn't serve anyone. I mean, this just why don't recognize this is the way the industry operates so we can choose to be, you know, Game of Thrones and, you know, frustrated about it.
Or you can say, you know what, this is just the way it is. And the thing is, as you said, not for profit, you know, just as in, you know, legal industry, you know, whether it's your donors or your clients, you know, if someone, oh, you know, we got to be all nasty to that person because they may take our clients, well, maybe the client's going to be like, whoa, are you being like so toxic to this person who was, right, or donor going, whoa, whoa, whoa, what is it saying about your organization?
That you were treating this person so ridiculously when they've, you know, they've got a chance to move up to an executive director role and they didn't have that chance at your organization. Hold on a minute, if you're just being this petty, like, I got some concerns about you now. Oh, maybe you're not, maybe the way you're behaving doesn't in align with my personal values of how you should treat people.
So, you know, there's a whole lot more, I think, you know, in terms of those, you know, those perceptions. And, and thinking again, like, if you value your people, if you, if you say that's the most important thing and relationships are the most important thing, right? Like, how are you just watching how that thread moves between and, you know, just, you know, the other thing I'm thinking, you know, I mean, I don't have the precise stats, but like, when you look at going to be like Gen Z, they're going to have 17 jobs in six different industries or something, you know, over the course of their lifetime.
I mean, this is a reality. This is not like the years of we're going to be, you know, getting the gold watch because we've been with a company for 50 years kind of stuff, right? Those days are gone. There's going to be some outliers and we're all going to be weirded out when we meet people who have been with the same company their entire life.
I mean, I know one woman from her summer internship as a lawyer
to now as a partner, one firm. I think it's like, really? One place? Like, nothing else? You're my age. Really? Like, that's odd. So people are going to bounce around. So why don't we just embrace and acknowledge that and say, right, how do we choose to behave within that environment? I like that and choosing how to behave within the environment and celebrating what they're bringing as when they come in when we're lucky enough to get those folks from the last place.
How do we celebrate them while we're here while they're here? Do you have your own? I mean, we all have our own transition stories, but is there something from one of your transitions in the workplace or change stories that gives you a lesson that you'd like to share with other folks going through a workplace transition?
You know, one of the things I thought about was so for a year, I was the first president of the Global Businesses Network. 85 broads and advisor to the founder. And it was an extraordinary, I mean, the time period that I was a member before Janet called me and asked me to be, uh, become her first president of the organization and really worked hand in glove with her for that year.
And a lot of that was like, what is this network? What is the value of it? What can she do with that? You know, and ultimately she sold the network and that was sort of her plan. And that's kind of why I was there, uh, at the end of that year when it sort of. Realize like, okay, my work is done, uh, and I stepped out of the president's role.
I also stepped out of the network and a lot of people like, why are you doing that? I said, because I was so visible and so like. Everything in that network that people started referring it to sort of like Kelly's. Hey, Kelly, your network, all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Right. I've now put things in place for others to run.
If I stay here. As a member, then this thing is the systems and things aren't going to be able to go forward on their own. So I think that's another thing. There may be times where you need to prematurely step out saying, okay, I know this is still a value to me. And here's a reason why I need to step aside.
And so that was, that was one that, you know, really came to mind for me. Another one that came to mind was a guy who came and spoke to me when, um, I did a book event up in Canada. And he'd been laid off. From his job, he had some sales type role and all that kind of stuff. And he was having to go job search again.
And he said, Hey, I can tell you what happened to me. And his story was about the value of relationships, which I think all of this, you know, how you let people leave. That's what it is, how you as a company or entity. Allow someone to leave and then how you as an individual. So, you know, the company was restructuring and he's 40 year old guy with mortgage kids, all that kind of good stuff.
And it was a scenario where the company could have said to him, we'll send you your stuff, or we'll give you 15 minute, get, you know, anything else we'll let you know, there's all sorts of things because it was one of those scenarios. Who he was employed by, that they, they could have done that. 'cause that was like the industry standard.
Instead, the company said, you know what? Take all the time you need, take all the time you need. And first off that, and he said to me, you know, it was kind of amazing. They said, Hey, take all the time you need you, you've been a valuable contributor and this is just market scenario. Situation and, sorry, wasn't different, but this is what we gotta do.
Uh, take all the time you need. So that was their side of it. His side of it. He said to me, he walked into his office. He's been in sales his entire career. He had the old Rolodex, you know, for those listening to this who don't know what it is, go Google it. That's all I can say. Anyway, he just went over, he picked up his Rolodex.
And he looked at me and he said, uh, yeah, he said to the company, yeah, I'm good. I got all I need. And he walked out because, I mean, the computer, everything was company property. So he just, off he went. And he looked at me and he said, I took my Rolodex because he said, I'll find something else because I've got relationships and relationships are everything.
And his attitude and understanding that that was important, but also the company, because my guess is. Anybody who said to him, Hey, oh, I'm sorry, dude, you were laid off. He's going to be like, yeah, like it wasn't their fault. It wasn't my fault. Just that's what was going on and they treated me well. And I, I have no, yeah, you've got an opportunity to go work there and go work there, you know, they're a great company, but you can't buy that kind of goodwill.
You can, you can destroy it and have to spend a lot of money to repair it, but you can't buy that kind of goodwill. That's so impressive. I was, as I was listening to you say that, I was just thinking what a different feeling and experience that must have been to just have them say, take all the time you need.
That's really powerful. And I also think it's really powerful when you were talking about, even if it feels premature, knowing as a leader, when it's time to step away or step back or step out. I think that's missing a lot. I think with many leaders is knowing when it's. Yes. Someone else's turn or when the community or the organization will will function better as they step aside.
I mean, I think sometimes we forget we can be the dead weight on an organization. When I was deciding to write my book back in, God, what was it now? 2015, 2016, you know, in that time period, I knew that my time commitments were going to be. Very, very different. I've never written a book before. I didn't know how much time I was going to need to write, like how many hours a day, like, you know, I'm not Stephen King.
I didn't know my, my writer's schedule, right? Like, you know, these people who are like, here's when I write and here's when I know, all those kinds of things. And so a lot of the organizations I was part of, whether it was mentoring, whether it was membership, whether it's on advisory boards, I basically said to everybody, I don't know if I can be of value.
And so it might be better if my spot is taken up with somebody else, or I don't want you to be hoping I'm going to still do all these things because I don't know if I'm going to be able to, so it probably better for me to step aside. Um, there was one organization and they were like, no, we'll take whatever time of your brain that we can get, but I literally was like, let me clear the slate.
And I can re engage and revisit once this writing process is over. I also love that because there's the, you know, that idea that if you are not stepping aside or stepping out, it doesn't give someone else an opportunity to raise their hand. To say, put me in. I'm ready. Um, I do love that the one organization said, no, we'll still take you.
Whatever time you have. Like, like, but that's part of it too, again, recognizing what, like, why am I here? Because, you know, and it might be something that we're going to talk about it, that kind of what happens when you leave and you kind of lose this piece of, of your identity and whatever else. But it's like, okay, I'm not just part of this organization or this advice.
Three boards so that I can be like, oh, and I'm on this advisory board. Like, I don't need to, you know, kind of have those list of accolades to make myself feel self important. If I'm not adding value, why, why the heck am I there? Well, and it's, it's important to that you touched on advisory boards and other volunteer opportunities as well, because I think we forget that it's as important in those spaces as it is with a paid salary, paid employment situation to leave.
Well, and to its time. But almost, you know what, it's almost in those scenarios, I want to say, as soon as you were saying that, I mean, it was advisory board kind of scenarios. That's almost where you want to from the moment you're recruiting someone is to discuss how and when they're going to leave.
Because I can't tell you how many. Awkward conversations founders find themselves in because they've got this, you know, deadweight advisory board and they had no, you know, exit strategy to say to people. Hey, you're here for this purpose in this period of time. And we'll revisit it after a year. Because, you know, the needs of a growing organization change, or a not for profit that doesn't have term limits, or those sorts of things.
And so, in some scenarios, the exit needs to be thought of from the minute you're trying to recruit someone. I agree with that, and I also, when you were speaking, was thinking of even the fact that to not have a really good off boarding protocol means that you're trying to, most likely, onboard someone.
With all the bells and whistles that go with that, when you're still trying to clean up offboarding mess, and it would work so much better in tandem if you had both. And to your point, if you planned exits as you were welcoming folks, I, you know, I think, yeah, thinking in particular, the not for profit space where you're looking for board members, you know, if you don't sort of have that, I think part of your sale.
This is my intense bias. Maybe a part of your sale to get someone on your not for profit board is to discuss the period of time and the expectations while they're there. And then the, yeah, the door will hit you on the, you know, proverbial ass, because guess what? We need. So that may actually be an enticement to be a part of something because now you know what the commitment is, how long in terms of your momentum and enthusiasm, plan out your contribution.
You should plan who's going to be your successor, you know, be able to move on, like, because in many ways, you know, open ended, come and join our board. It's like, I don't know if I've got enthusiasm for the rest of my life for this, but I might for two years, put some gates around it, put some fencing around it.
And then I'm like, oh, okay, I can manage this. I also love when you said, um, talking about the succession plan, even for board of directors roles or advisory committees to be able to be a part of. I know I'm leaving in 3 months. So let me help you with. The nomination committee, or let me help you with the marketing of finding new folks that feels really powerful, especially thinking about if I'm the new person that's being courted and someone who's leaving is part of that process.
That would make me, I think, more encouraged and more excited about being a part of that, because there was that obvious structure around the whole entire journey of being in that position. Make it natural because it's that's what's happening. Anyway, necessary. So you brought up, you brought up just a little while ago about what happens when you leave and lose identity.
Do you talk a little more about that? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there's all sorts of ways that we leave, you know, voluntary and involuntary. I think particularly in an employment scenario. I mean, that's a loss. And whether it's because you're retiring, or there's been downsizing, restructuring, there is a loss there, and I think that needs to be, you need to acknowledge that, and I think, in terms of.
Your, your cycle of processing of where you land next to acknowledge there was a loss because I no longer have this title, this admiration, this routine, all of those things that go with it. So there is that wound, we don't need to aggravate it with a poor exit interview or whatever else. And then I also think, you know, you need to think about all right, how am I going to discuss and explain.
After I acknowledge that this has been a loss. Right. How in doing that can, can that be part of how I explain to other people, you know, because even some, even when it is positive, there's, there's a loss. Even when, you know, it's out of sight of your control, there's probably some element of shame and regret, things you did or didn't do.
I mean, if I'd done this, could I have changed things? All those kind of feelings, so there's sort of that accept, not acceptance, but accepting your grief and your loss on that, and then saying, all right, no, you know, like, hey, yeah, I left, and you know what? It really sucked. I'm sorry that that happened that way.
Now that I've had a chance to internalize that I, here's what I'm excited about. Right or here's what I'm really remembering about working there and this is what I'm going to be doing going forward or whatever it may be. But I think as an individual is just recognizing that there is loss, but that even when it.
Is, you know, by choice, I mean, and the other piece of it, I think this is where entities. Kind of lose sight of a bigger picture, you know, in this digital era where our resumes and lives are so visible to everybody else. In the sense of LinkedIn or Instagram or whatever else, you're like, my brand is now permanently attached to your brand.
So, even if I am extraordinarily happy that I am no longer practicing law, now that I am, you know, absolutely thrilled that. My view on what I can do as a career is bigger than being a manager in a law firm. Who employed me before? I want you to be wildly successful, because I don't need people looking at me saying, Oh God, you work there?
That ball kind of goes to Christmas past ball and chain, dragging that around, having to explain why I work for those jerks or whatever else like that. Like, I want to be able to say, Yeah, I was there for this period of time. And here's the things I learned and. Wow, look what they've done now. Or, you know, yeah, when I was there, this was going on.
But wow, things have changed since I, you know, left, whatever it may be. But my brand is a tie to your brand. So, you know, I don't want to have to have, uh, Dwayne, I don't know, I'm thinking Enron or whatever else. Like we can all find like companies and go, Oh God, imagine if you had to explain your work there.
That might be when I leave off of LinkedIn. Possibly, I'd rather explain the career gap, maybe, but what as we close out, Kelly, what is there that we possibly haven't talked about or that I haven't asked that you'd like to share? I think we've touched on, you know, careers and memories are long, um, and, you know, relationships are, are everything.
So you'll value. Those relationships value as an individual value them from the minute you step into an organization and for organizations to value individuals when they leave probably a very short list of reasons you wouldn't value someone when they left and keep that list short. And otherwise, if people are going off for what they perceive is.
Bigger opportunities or that they don't have the time or whatever, you know, just value them for the time period there. They are there because it will reap huge benefits for you. I agree Kelly, thank you so much for your wisdom and your expertise and for your rant in your newsletter about taking care of people as they leave.
I really appreciate you. It is mutual and it was really fun to have this very focused conversation on this really essential and critical part of building our networks. Yeah. Thank you, Kelly. To learn more about leaving well, and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace visit naomihattaway.com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide, to shift culture, and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.
